Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating vs 50 Cent - Ayo Technology (Who sampled who?)
May 13th, 2008
I saw this video where it is claimed that Timbaland (And in the extension 50 Cent) stole the riff for Ayo Technology from Crystal Castles’ Courtship Dating. An interesting assertion, but allow me to demonstrate why this is most likely not the case. I’ve already written a previous post about CC and the copyright controversy, and I’ve got a few search enginge hits with queries like “Crystal Castles Timbaland” so why not sort this out once for all?
Quick Lesson: Sampling vs Sequencing of arpeggios
Time to analyze the sound. First a quick lesson about what the sound consists of. The characteristic chip effect heard in both song is a fast arpeggio, ie a number of notes played in quick succession. This technique was used to play chords on old sound chips because they only had a limited number of channels. (Often 3 or 4) Arpeggios were (and are) so widely used in classic video game music that they have become reminiscent of that era. (And they are still being used in today’s chip music, of course)
In essence, an arpeggio is nothing but a melody, although a fast one. Usually arpeggios in old-style trackers (which is what these music sequencers are called) the arpeggio are in sync with the general tempo of the song. This is design choice was not made for estethical reasons, but for practical ones. It’s simply hard to program software that plays an arpeggio out of sync with the global tempo of the song. (When targetting a low spec computer platform)
The main point is that a sequenced arpeggio will keep its tempo regardless of the key the chord is played in.
If you sample something (Anything, not a just arpeggios) the situation is different. If you pitch something up or down, not only the pitch will be changed, but also the tempo*. Think of it as a vinyl record on a record player. If you slow the record down a bit you can lower the pitch by, say, a semitone, but in the same time the record will play about 6% slower.
The main point here is that when chaing the pitch of something you’ve sampled (without using special techniques) you’ll also change the tempo.
*There are ways around this, using so called time-streching, but that’s not relevant to this argument.
Who sampled and who sequenced?
What does this mean for the comparison between these tracks?
Let’s have a listen at a clip from Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating.
Download Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating
It’s a 5 bar loop, where the last bar is a repetition of the first one. As you can hear, the speed of the arpeggio is different, depending on which key it’s played in. Apart from that, the arpeggio is (grossly) out of sync with the overall tempo. This clearly indicates that CC took a sample of an arpeggio from somewhere, looped it, loaded it into a sampler and played it at different keys.
Let’s listen to a clip of 50 Cent - Ayo Technology instead.
Download 50 Cent - Ayo Technology
This is a 2 bar loop (Or possibly 4 bar, depending on which tempo you think it is) The arpeggio is in sync with the overall tempo, and the it remains the same tempo no matter which key it’s played in. This indicates that this is either an original creation by Timbaland, or if it is ripped from a C64 tune, at least he took the effort to record it in sync with the rest of the song. Pay special attention to the transition between D#m and C#m in Timbaland’s version. (See the chord notation below) It’s smooth and keeps in tempo even during that fast transition.
If he sampled it from CC, he would’ve needed to apply a lot of micro-editing in order to get it in sync with the overall tempo.
The Chord Progressions
What about the chords?
According to the comments for this video, the chord progression in Ayo Technology could be either G#m, D#m, C#m or G#m, F#, E. (D#m and F# are similar to each other, and so are C#m and E.)
CC’s version has about the same progression of chords, but the chords are played in a slightly flatter key. It’s about one semitone flat compared to Timbaland’s, but not exactly. CC’s arpeggio is slightly out of tune with regard to the standard 12-tone scale, whereas Timballand’s arpeggio is perfectly in tune with the 12-tone scale.
So, the chord progression is the same, but different in timing. Both play the brightest chord first, the middle chord in the middle, and the flattest chord last.
CC plays the brightest chord during one bar, (Corresponding to G#m above) the middle one for one bar (Corr. to D#m/F#) and then the dimmest chord for two bars(Corr. to C#m/E)
Timba on the other hand plays the G#m for the whole first bar, then a D#m/F# for the most of the second bar, and finally C#m/E for a short portion of the second bar.
Or to put it graphically:
| Bar | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |
| Ayo Technology | G#m | G#m | D#m | D#m,C#m |
| Courtship Dating | G#m (-1 semitone) | D#m (-1 semitone) | C#m (-1 semitone) | C#m (-1 semitone) |
All in all, CC’s production is far worse than that of Timbaland. It would’ve taken alot of work in order to shape up it up to how it sounds in Ayo Tech. Considering the things CC did “wrong” (Their arpeggio is out of sync and out tune) and the things Timbaland did “right” (His arpeggio is in sync and in tune) it’s highly unlikely that Timbaland sampled CC’s arpeggio.
It might very well be that he listened to their song and decided to mimic the sound of it, but did he sample it, no, most likely not!
The Rest of the Story / the Verdict
Let’s look at the things surrounding the story. The video in the beginning of the post mentions a lawsuit where CC won over Timbaland. I’ve googled for this lawsuit and I haven’t found anything substantial. I’ve found a couple of references to the video linked in the beginning of the post, but nothing more than that. (Edit: Ooops, the video just says “Timbaland Loses”, without a reference to any lawsuit. My bad.)
The video also mentions the year for Courtship Dating is 2006, and then says “Fast forward one year to 2007″. This is a bit of a stretch. The first public appearance for this song was in December 2006 (link to video) and still a bit into 2007 they said they still hadn’t recorded the songs in a studio. I don’t remember where I read that, but if I find it again, I’ll post it here. Ayo Technology was released in July 2007. (Source) So 6 months is a better estimate I think.
Anyway, here’s my take on it: The chord progression is actually pretty generic. I think the two songs were created independently of each other, and that CC decided to jump on the train and spread a rumour when they heard Ayo Technology, to receive attention after Timbaland’s recent sampling of Janne Suni’s (Tempest’s) Acidjazzed Evening.
We might never know for sure.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
[...] Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating vs 50 Cent - Ayo Technology (Who sampled who?) [...]
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Hey, this is Nick from Nedry is Born.
First of all, that’s really funny about the videos I posted. I actually found those videos at random in a recent YouTube adventure, and the Dr. Phil picture I found on Wikipedia! Pretty funny. And I’m sorry, but I use Firefox! Still, though, pretty cool!
I agree with your ultimate conclusion here that the two songs were produced separately. The arpeggios don’t sound quite the same. It sounds to me that Timbaland’s arpeggios are still sampled, though, because they seem to change with the different chord, at least to my ears. But the two arpeggios seem fairly different in nature.
Still, unless Timbaland really has a SidStation, I’m sure he sampled it from something. This guy has a theory about it, though.
I’ll be reading your blog!
May 16th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I actually met Ethan of CC in glasgow last week before a gig.
I asked him this and he claimed that ‘fiddy’ stole it off him but just played it slower…
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:39 am
who sampled who?
a better question is which old video game did they both sample the tune from?
May 26th, 2008 at 6:14 am
“It would’ve taken alot of work in order to shape up it up to how it sounds in Ayo Tech.”
Not really.
Ableton. Or ProTools.
Time stretch.
Takes about 5 minutes in Ableton.
*shrug*
May 26th, 2008 at 6:15 am
“*There are ways around this, using so called time-streching, but that’s not relevant to this argument.”
umm why, when that’s what probably Timbaland used? Why isn’t it relevant? Very odd.
June 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
If the 8bitz sample CDs are still up on waffles, audiowarez etc you can find the sample wich timba used there. GLHF
June 4th, 2008 at 9:26 am
im sorry, but i think youre holding a grudge againist CC on account of your previous thoughts on their supposed sampling of other artists, and i actually find it ironic that theyre quite blatantly sampled here, yet you come to the rescue of big pop star producer.
good job being a hypocrite, considering it was even you who mentioned that CC has the money to pay for (im paraphrasing here) ‘big lawers and legal fees’
if anyone can pay off legal fees, its tim.
furthermore, your semitone analysis is actually the perfect evidence of as to why CC was indeed sampled here, considering tim has any bloody program he damn well pleases at his disposal, and could ‘clean’ up such a simple sample rather efficiently. even though you mention doing so could be rather time consuming, so does this whole rant that proves the opposite. plus, its not lie tim doesnt have a bit of time, eh?
in conclusion, nice try, but you gave to much evidence and fucked yourself over by doing so. better luck CC bashing next time.
amen
June 4th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Aammenn Iscariot:
When I started investigating the case of 50 Courtship Dating vs Ayo Technology, I did so with an open mind. I didn’t have any preconceptions about whether Timbaland sampled CC, nobody sampled the other or CC sampled Timbaland. (Heck, who knows?)
The reason I care is 1) becauseI’ve already written one post about CC 2) because Courtship Dating vs Ayo Technology wasn’t properly documented anywhere else.
I’ve compared the two songs in every way I could come up with. Listening to the songs by ear over and over, looking at the spectrum analysis, comparing the release dates. And my conclusion was in the end that this wasn’t a match.
I base my conclusion on sound analysis, you base yours on fanship. Who’s the most trustworthy?
How giving too much evidence in a case like this is bad, is beyond me.
They’re both sawtooth arpeggios with about the same chord sequence, but that’s where the similarities end. Also, which such a generic sound, and in CC’s case flawed, I don’t see why Timbaland would like to sample it in the first place, considering all the time and work it would take. From his point of view it would be easier to just play the chords himself and that way get them in perfect sync. (And I’m not saying that didn’t happen)
June 5th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Oi your going into the argument one sided which isnt very fair, CC are good and make good music. ive listened to both songs and they do sound similar but very different aswell. Different notes and timing makes them differ from eachother, but my thought is that they didnt copy eachother. Timbaland wouldnt have the time to fiddle around and copy CC’s beat, and on the other hand CC wouldnt steal the beat as it is a very simple beat and could be made easily and doesnt need to be copied from Timbaland.
finally id rather listen to Courtship dating than some crap ay technology bull crap. CC sounds wayyy better
peace
June 5th, 2008 at 3:43 am
What I say about Courtship Dating is not a value judgement. If you listen to the sound you can objectively say it’s a bit out of sync, as well as a bit out of tune, according to Audition’s auto-tuner. (And I’m not talking about the transposition here, their arpeggio is a few cents out of tune with the chromatic scale)
These things are the facts. Then it’s up to each and everyone to make a subjective judgement whether it sounds good or not. My point was not to subjectively say that CC are “bad” because these details in their sound, or to say that Ayo Technology sounds “better” than Courstship Dating. But rather to point out that’s it’s more likely that Timbaland recorded his arpeggio from a synth rather than sampling it from CC.
Apart from that, your (mitcheeell’s) comment summarizes my post well.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Wow I was surprised this was an article on here. Allow me to lay this all to rest…
The sample used in Ayo Technology is a STOCK ARPEGGIO FROM FRUITY LOOPS STUDIO. If I remember correctly, its under the 3x Osc folder that comes with FL. I used this arpeggio in about a million songs when I was learning to produce and laughed when I actually heard it on the radio. I was pissed I didn’t get to it first!!!
But yeah, this arpeggio comes straight out of Fruity Loops. Check it out yourself.. The definitive proof is in the fact that the arpeggio in Ayo Technology slows down on the lower notes. It pulsates slower, just like the arpeggio included in FL. Check it out. As for Crystal Castles, they probably got it from the same place, I dunno..
June 18th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
this guy Oliver Wittchow sells these gameboy cartridges with “nanoloop” a beat making /synthesis program. if you want to write music with 8bit arpeggio sounds, these things are pretty much the way they go
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:03 am
@Nick Turco (comment 2)
Timbaland does have a SidStation it would appear: http://www.hitsquad.com/news/musicthing/toms_music_thing_-_timbaland_vs_finland_vs_sidstation/
June 24th, 2008 at 6:06 am
You say that they are simply similar yet Timbaland gives an interview stating that no two artists can come up with something similar without sampling. So He himself threw your defense for him out the window. Maybe you haven’t heard the interview yet? I’ll link it because maybe you meant something different by “similar”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JTvY3wZrHrQ&feature=related
June 29th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I spoke to Ethan about it and he said that neither one is sample.
He said it sounded to him like Timbaland listened to the CCs song and wanted to imitate that sort of sound.
Ethan uses a sample of ETHAN playing a SIDstation on his track.
Timbaland probably used a SIDstation to create the similar sound on his track.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
@ginferno: Apart from guessing where the sounds came from originally, that was my conclusion. Thanks for the confirmation.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
@ginferno: Apart from guessing where the sounds came from originally, that was my conclusion too. Thanks for the confirmation.
September 15th, 2008 at 6:27 am
I really love the way people fire up to defend shit. I can hear that the CC arps line is out of time. Anyone with ears should be able to hear that. This does not mean that he did not sample it for himself… it just means that it is a sample that has been pitch shifted, as you have even said Nitro. I just find it funny that a musician that prides himself on his retro gaming/8bit sound would sample instead of using a sync system, or at least writing a full line before sampling it. But hey, who am I to judge, really? I might just be more of a purist that I think.
Timberland’s sample is much tighter there is no doubt and therefore was not sampled from CC in my humble opinion. The fact that Ethan from CC - the almighty “bender of the pokey chip” - feels (if the reports we have recieved are correct) that it was sampled from his track and that this is unjust, then I can do nothing but laugh. I will laugh even harder if the report that Ethan thinks that Timberland listened to his track with the out of time arps and wanted to make something that sounded similar is not some fan-tasy story based on a myspace comment that this person might have read.
Just some thoughts.
September 18th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
what video game is that sample from?? Anybody?
November 7th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Amazing article. Great job!
December 4th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
i’m doing an analysis of courthip dating for college so thanks for putting the chord proggressions and stuff (y)
but i must say, why are you being so anal about this whole who sampled who bollocks. courtship dating is a much much better song. so just enjoy the music and forget about it.
December 4th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
trikkydikky: Read up on the Crystal Castles chip music controversy. The reason I did this analysis so anally is because I believe that that video was planted to divert the attention from the other controversy.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:16 am
I got caught up reading comments on youtube about this last night. It’s all complete bullshit by CC fans. You can’t patent a three-chord chord progression! A fast arpeggio doesn’t make it anymore unique. If you want to play the stealing game, they both steal from the Justin Timberlake song “My Love”. It predates both of them. CC fans need to get over it.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:23 am
Well, The CC fans claimed that Timbaland actually sampled that particular sound from a CC song, which I think I’ve demonstrated in my post, is not the case.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:35 am
Yes absolutely. As you’ve explained it quite thoroughly that theres no way it could be a sample. But they weren’t happy with that fact on youtube. They wanted the “genius” song writing of CC recognised and the chord progression to be given the status of being totally new and unique.
As an aside, and a totally biased opinion. Crystal Castles are a load of shite. Maybe if they ditched the awful vocals it might make it a bit better. With the way the fans were talking I was expecting them to have taken over the world by now. Have they even had a number one yet?
February 12th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Wow.. you’re a complete moron. Clearly this was ripped off Crystal Castles. You don’t just come up w/ beats like that separately. Seriously how stupid are you? ’cause Timbaland never samples right?
February 13th, 2009 at 12:37 am
I sat down and analyzed the both the specimen. Cut up the sounds in pieces and compared them using my ears, eyes and software. Investigated every little technical detail. You didn’t. I have experience with audio engineering, you don’t. Yet you, the fanboy, take the liberty to call me a complete moron. To me it’s very apparent who’s the real moron.
February 13th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Yes, you. Any music novice could tell you that it’s a simple Time Stretch Pitch change, so if you’re an audio engineer you should look for a new job. You don’t need a ton of software to realize that one beat is sampled/reproduced and only slightly modified. I think your ears are as retarded as you are.
February 13th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Did you even read the fucking post? Did you even give this any more thought than “Let’s protect my favourite band”?
There are too many things that don’t add up to support the theory that Timbaland sampled Crystal Castles. CC’s arpeggio is out of tune and out of sync. Timbaland’s arpeggio is in tune and in sync. (Yes arpeggio, not beats) As I pointed out in the post, pay special attention to the transition from the D#m chorde to the C#m chord in Timbaland’s song. It’s perfectly in sync with the overall tempo of the song. While CC’s arpeggio is completely out of sync with the overall tempo. That is why they are using such a long attack (Fade-in) for the sound, to conceal the fact that’s it’s out of tempo. (It it had started at the final volume level directly at the note start, the tempo inconsistency would’ve been too apparent)
To think that Timbaland samples such a foul audio material and tried to bring it in tune and in tempo is outrageous. Especially when a sound like this is so damned easy to create if you know the slightest thing about any music production software!
And yes, listen to it yourself. Really do it. There are sound clips from both the songs above. Come back when you have something more intelligent to say. Like actually trying to refute the aguments I’m presenting instead of just saying I’m wrong without any evidence whatsoever for your point and calling me names.
February 13th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Look who wasted their time with their stupid website, debating something that really isn’t debatable. Trust me, if this went to court Timabaland would be paying for it. I don’t care about your nerd “analysis”, you don’t need to do any more than LISTEN. Apparently your ears are THAT retarded.
February 13th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
It is the same chord progression, yes, (G#m; G#m; D#m; D#m,C#m) even if the chords are aligned a little different. And both the songs are using an arpeggio effect to play the chords. But that doesn’t mean one sampled the other. Only a fool is decieved by appearances.
And trust ME: If this went to court they would do a much more thorough analysis than just listen to the two tracks and notice the superficial similarity.
You say that I’m debating something that really isn’t debatable. While you’re technically wrong, (Anything that can be obectively analyzed can be debated) you have a valid point. You can’t argue with stupid, ‘coz stupid always knows, even he doesn’t. Which means that when you’re arguing with stupid, nothing is debatable. Which you have proven beyond doubt. Congratulations.
February 14th, 2009 at 1:05 am
It doesn’t matter if they were sampled or the beat was reproduced and changed. Things like this have gone to court before: Rolling Stones vs. The Verve. That wasn’t even a sample, but a sample of a reinterpretation! And you’re not stupid, you’re just very oblivious.
February 14th, 2009 at 2:50 am
Ah, excellent, finally an intelligent response. Which brings to another important point: Intent. In the Rolling Stones vs The Verve case, it is very clear that The Verve intended to reinterpret the string section used in Rolling Stones’ song. (Nevermind the rest of the controversy surrounding that song) And the Rolling Stones song referenced had been released some 30 years before Bitter Sweet Symphony hit the shelves.
In the case on Courtship Dating vs Ayo Technology on the other hand, there is the problem that they were released too close to each other. Ayo Technology was recorded in May 2007 and released August 2007 (Wikipedia) Courtship Dating was released officially, both as a single and as a track on the self titled album, not until 2008. Of course, Courtship Dating was around already in 2006, as a live song and possibly as demos sent to record companies and/or leaked MP3’s. It is possible that Timbaland picked up said video or demo and was inspired by it. (Which I even mentioned in the post, if you read it) But even if that really was the case I doubt it would hold up in a court. It’s after all a pretty generic chord progression and it’s not that implausible that they both came up with it independently of each other.
And that’s why I think your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges. (The Verve referenced a song released 30 years earlier and admit to doing so vs Timbaland allegedly referencing an, at the time, unreleased song that’s less than a year old)
February 24th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I totally disagree with you. You have to be 100% out of the loop of what has been going in underground and popular music to believe that Timberland’s version is unrelated to Crystal Castles.
February 24th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I guess Vanilla Ice did a totally unrelated version of Queen’s underpressure. If I remember correctly it has an extra hi-hat hit. yeah, totally unrelated.
Also, Timberland better produce a technically “better” version of the part. How much does that lame-O get paid to produce tracks?
February 24th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
All my comments were directed at the author of the article.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:28 am
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